תהלים מג – דברים מקבוצת הדיון

Tuesday, April 25, 2017 • כ״ט ניסן תשע״ז

I dont understand this whole machlokes. Its a matter of reality. If you can convince enough rabbis to allow u to just take a shower then that will be the halacha. if u think something should be some halacha and nobody knows then whatever, as long as they dont know its not relevant. If you want to change the public norm u just need to get the public to agree..

since everyone listens to them

if you can get the oilem to start listening to you instead of the rabbonim go ahead

me too

but its the reality

the rabbis have power because the people gave them

קבלת רבים בלה בלה

הרב אהרן מילר אומר שההלכה מחייבת רק ברשות הרבים לא כל אחד בדלת אמות שלו. ואם שואלים אותו מה הוא עושה בדלת אמות שלו הוא עונה שאם היה עונה זה כבר לא היה דלת אמות שלו..

ההלכה מחייבת בגלל המציאות לא בגלל התורה מן השמים

שהעולם מציית להלכה..

המנהג

אכן

רק יש רבנים שלא משוכניעים

דברתי עם אבא שלי באריכות בפסח והוא אמר לי שהוא רב והוא מסופק מה דין האינטרנט בגלל הטענות שלי ושל הסטאלינער רבי

זה לא זה מה שאמרתי

אבל המנהג לקיים ההלכה גם בלת אמת..

בדלת אמות

העומק בזה הוא שאין באמת דלת אמות כי the personal is the political

לדעתי לא שייך בכלל לומר מחייב על מה שאתה עושה בדלת אמות שלך

זה בינך לבין אלהים תסתדר איתו

רק יש נורמות ציבוריות שרשמית הם חלות גם על הדלת אמות כי אם היו אומרים אחרת הם לא היו גם נורמות ציבוריות

כמו שאמרו רזל כל דבר שאסור משום מראית עין אפילו בחדרי חדרים אסור

אבל זה אמרו בציבור לא בחדרי חדרים..

תורה לא בשמים הוא.

זה רק חוט השערה בין תורה לא בשמים הוא לבין תורה לא משמים הוא…

כלומר אפשר לפלפל אבל ברגע שגם הריליגיס פרספקטיב מבין שהכרעת ההלכה תלויה במנהג כלומר בבית דין של מטה אז כבר הם מסכימים איתי שהמחייב הוא המציאות ולא האלהים, ויש להם אפילו סיפור שאלהים אומר נצחוני בני

אני מסכים, אבל החילוק הוא תאורטי קצת ואין לו נפק״מ למעשה.

הצד השלישי זה שהכל אלהות ולכן מה שהעולם אומר זה נקרא מצוות השם

I think you have to explain what we mean by the word authority.

הזוהר אומר שאין תריג מצות יש תריג עצות להרגיש את האלהות

זה נקרא אוטוריטי?

טוב אם אני מאמין במשהו אני מאמין בצד השלישי הזה

אני לא יודע מה עוד אפשר להאמין

אני חושב שאנו מבלבלים כשאנו מדברים על ‘הלכה׳

זו סתם מילה ליטאית

יש מצוות

יש חוקים

יש ריטואלים

יש כל מיני דברים

הלכה זה סתם מה שמישהו בק״ש קרא פעם joker או אחרים קוראים לזה rhetorical weapon זה מה שאומרים כשרוצים להפסיק וויכוח כמו בשיח שמאלני גזען או בשיח ימני סלפ הייטינג גו

law is litvish 🙂

halacha is jewish custom

in reality

yeah for arba shomrim

no im just trying to explain what we mean

i think calling the jewish dedication or whatever you call it to mitzvos halacha does it a disservice

its a very bad summary

or categorization

first no, devorim is a book about the divine order of history and of the covenant with the historical jews

but you cant pretend that the reason for the list of dos and donts are disconnected in some kind of lawland

it literally says worship god this way otherwise he will be mad

and send you into exile

no thats not teh pshat

there are punishments like malkus whatever

but the bris doesnt work like that

let me try to make my point . We are getting confused and I am

it confuses the subject when someone like kugel or lebovits says i believe in halacha because no reason it is avodas hashem.

If he would understand himself better he would say something like that shabbos and the jewish order of dos and donts are the particular jewish way of organizing worship and some other aspects of life. Which are divine meaning its really servind God (which exists etc) and based on a long history of inspiration/revelation/whatever.

Now there are some details like when do you say ashrei uvo letziyon which are decided in a system of laws, which is fallible or infallible whatever. It also includes some inexplicable bits like milk and meat which are kept as a package deal (in reality, mostly by social reasons which decide that)

but his principal allegiance is not to “Halacha” as such, it is to this particular way of organizing life, in particular the god-worship parts. Its only the details that decide some things.

I think that when we make “Halacha” the thing we are dedicated to, besides for the issue of it being avoda zara, it leads to countless absurdities and is phenomenologically false. Of course halacha is the process that decides when we say tefila ledavid and when we say also lamnatzeach. But if someone will say I have allegience to the kol yyakov siddur that is absurd. Same with other things.

I am dedicated to davening shachris, all kinds of things that means. I am not decicated to nusach sefard according to the hasidic rite

yes i might be makpid to say everything exactly as the siddur says, but that is not the point of my allegaince

of course it makes no sense to be bound to a system of laws, thats why lebovits sounds nuts. It does make sense (at least some kind of sense) to be interested in a religion which is adjudicated by laws.

What i think happened is that “orthodox” jews got so obsessed with some minor details of when to say av harachmim that they started to think that this is what definse them.

of course there are some seriously more important stuff like hilchos nida or gitin. But in the greater sense its the same thing.

Even if you want to be very orthodox, the diff between ortho and reform isn’t in what binds them to judaism, its just a difference in jurisprudence. both are interested in judaism as such not in some lawbook. The ortho just have a more originalist jurisprudence or whatever.

thats orthodox propoganda

that because ur comparing the ortho monostary to the reform laypeople

also filop isn’t really committed. He proclaims psakim according to whatever moshe friedman tells him

how do you know…

most othodox people do

in any case

i think there is a large variance. In an case I don’t think that it would explain the denominational split. you need a better explanation for that.

that even if your theory is correct thats not what explains the machlokes between the denominations

at best it can be some kind of subconcious slander, you can say the conservative allow women to be rabbis because they didn’t take the whole thing seriously anywa

which is a silly thing to say

and yet people adhere to all kind of morals and customs without them being from god.

maskana: people are weird

🙂 הצאנזער רב אמר שכל דבר שהוא עושה יש לו שלש מאות טעמים..

they’re probably more likely to develop fasting days than rules against murder..

jonothan haidt tries to make the claim that there are six or seven different categories of morals includng purity and obedience etc. he claims most traditiional societies have all of them but modern people (at least liberals) onnly believe in minimizing harm and fairness

i think its a good way to think about the reality

😇

the thing is passover meals are mostly harmless. The halachot that are harmful actually are the ones that make sense in terms of organizing society. It’s only that not everyone agrees we should be a theocratic patriarchal society..

I’ve been reading a bunch of the ‘rationalist’ internet btw, (as in lewwsrong.com and its talmidim), which is basically a bunch of people who decided to rethink everything from rational principles and base their life on that. You’d be surprised how many shtisim these ultra rational atheists do..

its seems the natural state of society is to become a religion. the smarter ones become cults..

^lesswrong

but you must agree that tradition is a social thing

its not really the kind of personal dedication that frum people think they have

i don’t think we should be ashamed of saying we dip the karpas in saltwater because that’s what everyone in our community does.

it makes a lot of sense

if i would live on an island i probably wouldn’t dip it in saltwater

also i might not wear a shirt

depending on the weather

מה נשתנה הלילה הזה מכל הלילות? שאותנו הוציא משם ועכשיו אנחנו עם אחד ואנו צריכים לעשות מה שכל העם עושים

🏝🍷

ur assuming one way belief in god starts.

religion isn’t really a special category. there are many different things that get called that, secular rituals are also religion, its just semantics

in general everyone has origin myths even without the rain coming because you danced

maybe they are scientific ones.. but what is the difference between the big bang and sheshet yemei breishis? they both are there to answer the same question

it makes sense what yoelish says

faith is also like that

in other words, faith is really just a strong memory. personal or collective. Instead of saying every day let me figure out if there is a god you just say i believe that because I was convinced when I was in yeshiva.

or because ten thousand years ago there was a miracle

honsetly the rational approach is what? we have to rethink our basic beliefs and values once a life? every day? from what first principles? even descartes said we should doubt everything only once a lifetime

everyone has a purpose

ayn rand said it is to make money

and that somehow connects to the unverse and everyhing

it is

creationism in itself isnt either a purpose, its a bunch of other stories together that give people tthat

neh

this only sounds like that to you in a certain context

in the hyopethetical island where everone only believs science (like LA for example..) there is no lack of myths and purposese

like to make the world a better place

or whatever bs

I don’t think so. A religion does. religion is just a label for the set of beliefs and minhagim people have that aren’t directly for survival or whatever

and in the island people would worship something

in fact the world we live in is such an island

and only a few intellectuals are bothered by noting having an ultimate purpose or whatever

ook

im not sure what we’re arguing here anymore

according to many scientists it does replace religions

yes but basicaly the question is should or could it

maybe because people are dumb or something like that

of course you do..

thats basically all they do, except in extreme cases

everyone keeps as many assumptions as they can

ur actually giving me an idea for religio-science syncretism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_syncretism

did you read ken wilbur?

alan de botton

wilbur tries to make a quasi religion out of evolution

and many others in that scene

idk about ritual

de botton had such ideas

idk if there are any believers..